Walls That Speak: Inspiring Conservation Through Art

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Guest Information

Jane Kim is a co-founder of Ink Dwell, an art studio that produces stunning murals and other works that celebrate the natural world. Jane is a visual artist and science illustrator. She received a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Printmaking from Rhode Island School of Design and then attended California State University Monterey Bay, where she earned a master’s certificate in science illustration. She has created large-scale public art across the country, including the Wall of Birds at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology in Ithaca, and produced works for the National Aquarium in Baltimore, the de Young Museum in San Francisco, and more.

Thayer Walker, co-founder of Ink Dwell, manages Ink Dwell’s operations and is an author and correspondent who has written about science, adventure, exploration, and the natural world for nearly two decades—and along the way had some adventures of his own. (I read something about 20 days on a desert island and escaping the jaws of a jaguar…) With Jane, he co-authored The Wall of Birds, a book about that monumental mural at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology.

Show Notes & Links

In this episode, we discuss Ink Dwell inspirations, the studio's mission, and how their art fosters a deeper connection with nature. Co-founders Jane and Thayer, delve into specific projects like the Wall of Birds and the Migrating Mural campaign, which highlight wildlife and ecosystems across the U.S. They also reflect on their creative process, the impact of their art on conservation, and share memorable experiences with invertebrates.

inkdwell.com

Transcript

Rachel: Welcome to Bug Banter with the Xerces Society, where we explore the world of invertebrates and discover how to help these extraordinary animals. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/give.

Matthew: Hi, I'm Matthew Shepherd in Portland, Oregon.

Rachel: And I'm Rachel Dunham in Missoula, Montana.

Matthew: When science and art meet they create a nexus where inspiration and education combine to create impactful outcomes. From illustrated ID guides to building-sized murals, art has been woven into science communications for thousands of years, and its value has continued to persist. Xerces has harnessed the power of images and we are excited to explore this topic more.

Matthew: Today, we are sitting down with Jane Kim and Thayer Walker, who founded Ink Dwell, an art studio that produces stunning murals and other works that celebrate the natural world. Jane is a visual artist and science illustrator. She received a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Printmaking from the Rhode Island School of Design, and then attended California State University Monterey Bay, where she earned a Master’s Certificate in Science Illustration. She has created large-scale public art across the country, including the Wall of Birds at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology in Ithaca, and produced works for the National Aquarium in Baltimore, the de Young Museum in San Francisco, and more.

Matthew: Thayer manages Ink Dwell’s operations and is an author and correspondent who has written about science, adventure, exploration, and the natural world for nearly two decades—and along the way had some adventures of his own. I read something about 20 days on a desert island and escaping the jaws of a jaguar. With Jane, he co-authored The Wall of Birds, a book about that monumental mural at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology.

Matthew: Welcome to Bug Banter, Jane and Thayer.

Jane: Thank you. It's so good to be here!

Rachel: It's impressive credentials and experience that you both have. So what was the inspiration for founding Ink Dwell?

Jane: Oh, that's a great question. So, as Matthew mentioned, I got my degree first in Visual Fine Arts. And I think that going back to school for science illustration was a little bit of the bookend that allowed me to figure out really how to set my practice up, which combined information, and knowledge, and science in with the emotional interpretive elements that art provided. And so the studio was founded with that in mind, of bringing these two disciplines together. And I steered away from using my name because I felt like what we were doing was something beyond an individual, and beyond the work of a single person, because it really—as you'll discover as we talk—it requires so much more than just me.

Rachel: Yeah, definitely. Do you have a mission for your studio?

Thayer: We do. So Ink Dwell is dedicated to exploring the wonders of the natural world through fine art and visual art. And so that can take on a lot of different forms and functions. We're probably best known for our large-scale public works, as you mentioned, the murals: The Wall of Birds, and The Migrating Mural, and a number of others. But in reality, we do everything as it relates to visual representation of the outside world from scientific illustrations, putting together brochures for Xerces, or signage, or even product design. It's really quite broad. And then Jane obviously has her own fine art practice making beautiful paintings—she's actually got a show coming up next month. So really anything that has to do with visual storytelling about the natural world is right up our alley.

Jane: Yeah, and I'll just add to that, too. Ink Dwell is kind of a play on words. It's “inked well” without the ‘E’ between the two words. It's art that is created about the places that I love to dwell. And so that is really the setup for why I feel like what we're trying to do is engage with an audience, and have a conversation with the audience, and figure out how we can find our place within the natural world, too. So a lot of the stories that we tell are not necessarily just about nature, it's about the human connection and experience within nature, and how we forge relationships with the natural world.

Rachel: Oh, that's really beautiful. Are there any specific projects or causes that you like to focus on?

Jane: I think it is really about understanding and connection. I really love public artwork because it's in the public space, and it becomes a part of everybody's everyday experience. And it's not—. You don't have to seek it out, per se, especially if you live in the area. But I think one of my favorite things is when someone says, “Oh, I just saw one of your murals, and now I see monarch butterflies everywhere.” They were probably always there, now they're just paying attention to it because somehow, they've been shown in a different way, and then their eyes are now open to it. Or, for example, someone will look at a work of mine and then see the subject out in nature, and be like, “I looked for those little details that you included in your painting,” like the hairs on the leaves, or something like that. And like, “And I actually saw it!” And so it is about that connection and being able to broaden somebody's understanding or even emotional sentiment towards the subject.

Thayer: Yeah, and I think to that end, as well, you know, I don't think there's necessarily a particular subject matter that excites us more than others. I think at this point we might be known, you know, as the bird studio, because of the Wall of Birds, and—or maybe the butterfly lady because of The Migrating Mural. But in reality, we're telling local stories. And so every project that we do gives us the opportunity to explore different ecosystems, different diversity. Which I think is one of the reasons, also, why we have a lot of latitude. When we have a studio—it's about exploring the wonders of the natural world—the sort of benefits of that is that we don't actually have to just focus on a particular thing. We have so much that we can mine, that we can explore. And so when we go into a place like, you know, Springfield, Illinois, we can go and tell the story about prairie habitat and pollinators there. Versus, when we're here in the Bay Area, you know, we're telling Bay Area stories.

Jane: And selfishly, it allows me to connect. This is the way that I'm also able to really form deep connections to the natural world. And then sharing that with the audience is also a really magical experience. So, I'm getting a lot out of this, as well, in terms of my own understanding. And I often use nature as an allegory to understanding complex human behavior and culture. So all of it is full circle.

Matthew: We often ask what seems like a simple question, but doesn't have an easy answer, so.

Jane: Yeah, totally. Totally.

Matthew: Yeah. But I liked hearing about the thinking behind Ink Dwell, because I'd obviously made the connection between ink well because—partly because I'm old enough that when I was a kid, we did have ink wells in the corner of our desks at school. And then we'd dip our pens and learn to write cursive— in my case, untidy cursive. But I hadn't made the connection between dwelling and that connection to a location. So that was really interesting.

Thayer: Yeah, and I think, actually, just kind of building on that a little further. And this is one of the things that I love about Jane, both personally and professionally, is, you know, she's actually very, very humble—a very humble person. You know, she came to me with the name and just threw it out there, and asked what I thought of it. And previously she had been working under Jane Kim Fine Art, and obviously that was relevant for the fine art practice. But as we were thinking about this—frankly, such an important problem that we're facing today—not naming the studio after a single person, but after—naming it after an idea, a concept that allows it to bring more people into the fold. Our team, our assistants, and illustrators, and artists that work with us—they have a real stake in this, too, and a real identity within the studio that goes much further than just a single person.

Matthew: The artwork you do—in fact the mission of the studio is like natural world and nature. Is there anything in particular that inspired that?

Jane: I think that it's because it is absolutely the connective tissue, no matter who you are, where you are, where you live, honoring and understanding the natural world around you is—it makes you a better person. It makes you a kind person. It makes the world exciting. There's so much to understand, and that we don't know, like, it's built-in magic when you start really digging into the natural world. And so I think that it's always been the topic that I felt like it's endless. So it only continues to just stack on top of the questions that I've already been asking. And it's, yeah, it just—. You can already see like how I get excited about talking about it because I don't know, I can't imagine—.

Jane: And I think that weirdly, there are people who think we can live without it. And they are really trying to figure out how to do that. And especially as the climate is in the middle of a massive transition and change—and that's something that frightens me, quite frankly. So I think whatever I can do to shed light on its beauty, and the joy, and all the positive effects that it can have on a human being is something that I feel really strongly about.

Matthew: Totally understand that. And I know in your art, through Ink Dwell, you take on a wide range of projects. There's just two that I can think of that Xerces has been involved with. It's like an 80-foot-high mural that wraps an entire building, and an eight-inch-high illustration for a brochure. Do you have any limits on the kind of projects that you embark on?

Jane: No. I love a challenge. Haha. And I love working with new materials. And all for the sake of the story—our materials actually are determined by what we feel might be the best way to communicate something. And in the case of these large murals—what you're referring to is our Migrating Mural series, and that's a series of murals painted along migration corridors of animals that they share with people—I didn't seek out becoming a muralist by any means. That wasn't what I had in mind. It was more that format was what I thought was the strongest way to tell this story. Which was within the building, making something impossible to ignore—huge. Just the fact that a mural of that scale exists for that subject communicates already to someone who's passing by like, “Oh wow, this is important. This species is important. This city decided it was important by allowing such a thing.” So all of that—it gave a sense of connection to place, all these things—it sort of made sense that it was a mural.

Jane: I love working on science illustration in the form of textbooks, and brochures, and pamphlets, and small, intimate pieces of paper ephemera. You know, we've done shoes, as they're mentioned. Like literally nothing is off the table because I think there's a story that can be told about nature literally in everything that we do.

Thayer: And there was an “aha” moment behind The Migrating Mural.

Jane: Yeah, there was. Because I was—at the time, the idea came when I was still in school for science illustration. And I live in San Francisco, and the program is in Monterey. And sometimes I would drive back for the weekend to come back up to San Francisco, and I would drive through this stretch on 101 that had just billboards, after billboard, after billboard.

Thayer: Seaside, right?

Jane: Yeah, it was. And it was just one of these like, “Why, do these have to have advertisements?”

Thayer: Monterey Bay, Seaside, big sweeping sand dunes. I mean, it's a beautiful zone.

Jane: All along—there's so many moments on 101 where it's like that. And it—I thought, “What a missed opportunity.” Like we could be helping people learn about this part that they're driving through, or engage in some way. And so that idea of a migrating mural as you're traveling—. Because I often wanna know that. Like, if I'm on a long-distance road trip, like driving through Texas and we're driving through all these different zones, and chaparral, and scrub, and this. And I was like, “What if there were these like signs that were like, ‘You're now entering the chaparral.’?” I think a way to communicate and converse with people.

Thayer: It's just a repositioning. It’s like—.

Jane: A repositioning. And I've often wondered, like wanting to walk down a city street in a city that I'm not familiar with, so I don't necessarily know the flora there, but, “Oh, what is this tree?” Like I wish it had a little necklace that said, “I am a sycamore,” or like, you know what I mean? Something that was like—helped me constantly engage with my environment. And I do feel like that's what nature does for me. It's like everything. I have an opportunity to look and be curious, and so I wanna just share that, of course.

Thayer: Yeah. There's a lot of—just thinking about these road trips, and the billboards, and the signage, and stuff—there's so much signage that we've created to orient ourselves within the built environment, telling us what to do, what not to do, what speed to drive, where to turn, where not to turn, what city or county limits we're entering. But a lot of this stuff—and while it's certainly important for the flow of traffic, and vehicular safety, and navigation, I don't wanna discount that—but it—we've become so self-absorbed. It's a very narrow orientation, right?

Jane: Yeah.

Thayer: And you could imagine, driving across country—and to Jane's point, it's such a diverse country—imagine if you're on a highway, if you're on 80, and you're like, “Okay, you've entered Colorado. And now you're in the Colorado Plateau, and boom.” It doesn't have to be anything particularly elaborate, but just ways to remind people that we're connected to so much more than just our built environment.

Matthew: Yeah. And it's funny, I—as you're talking about having signs on the roadside—I was thinking like, “Oh yeah, when I drive through Oregon, you go past somewhere and there'll be a banner saying, ‘This is ryegrass brought to you by.’” And I was like, “Yeah, why can't there be a sign that says, ‘This is chaparral. It's really valuable. It's not just a wasteland.’”

Rachel: Yeah, definitely. And that segues perfectly into The Migrating Mural campaign. These public installations that highlight wildlife along migrating corridors, and sharing that with people, which I just—I love that idea so much. So we know that there's the bighorn sheep, and the monarch butterflies are the only two so far? Are there any other ones in the works?

Jane: So far. However, thank you for asking this question because when we created this project, we had always thought of it as scalable and serial. And I had really wanted for the first three to hit land, sky, and sea. And so the bighorn sheep, of course, is our land migrator. And the monarch butterfly that we have, of course, represents our skies. And then I would really love to create a series of murals around salmonids—steelhead, and Coho, and all the different salmons that we have, especially along our coastline here in the West Coast.

Thayer: We just wanna go fishing.

Jane: Haha.

Rachel: That would be amazing. So with the monarch series, how many have you completed? Can you give us a sense of like how big is this project?

Jane: Yes. I believe we have, at this point, 10 unique installations with the 11th upcoming. Actually this fall—middle of October—we head down to Southern California to Saddleback Community College, where we will also be partnering with you all to have a habitat kit planted on campus. For our West Coast murals, we have very proudly partnered with Xerces to be our science conservation partner.

Thayer: For all.

Jane: For—yeah, so.

Thayer: We have projects in California, Utah, Arkansas—.

Jane: Florida.

Thayer: —Illinois, and Florida. So five states, and soon to be 11, is it?

Jane: Yeah. There's a few that are more on the private end. Like there's one in San Francisco at SF Day School on their rooftop that I did with the kids. And it was very cool. They actually even worked with their science teacher to create planter boxes to flank the little mini mural that they painted on their rooftop for pollinators. 

All of the work that we do really also comes with activation. And especially regarding the Monarch Migrating Mural—all of our partners have been very willing to re-landscape, or plant in general, if they haven't planted. And so this is part of the activation, and that's, you know, why we feel our work is beyond just a—the art. And that the art is actually not even the final product, it's merely a springboard.

Rachel: Yeah, certainly. And I love just the connection piece that you've talked about with this art. What's been the reaction in the community of these murals?

Jane: The ones we get to see, obviously, are the ones that [happen] when we're painting, and they’re—those are always so positive, of course. I don't know, it's like hard to measure that. But I would have to assume that it's making some sort of a positive impact as, you know, we continue to create them.

Thayer: I think what we've seen is—and this has happened a number of times—these projects have actually pretty significant impact locally within the built environment, within the neighborhoods. And a lot of times what happens is—because, you know, these projects are big, and iconic—and so what we’ll have is organizations actually reaching out to us, and saying, “Hey, we wanna—we want people to know that we're here, what we do, what we stand for. We wanna make a statement, we wanna make a splash. We want it in a way that tells stories of diversity, of conservation, of the natural world, but does it in a way that unifies, and that brings people together.” And so, you know, that's actually quite common for folks to come to us.

Thayer: For instance, in Utah, they basically launched their arts district around the Monarch Migrating Mural. You know, this was a development plan that was years in the making, so long before we came about. But Ogden, in the last decade or so, has really invested a lot in developing its art district, and been very successful with it. And it was all around this one particular historic building that a developer remodeled. And they did an incredible job. And as it was getting closer to completion, they reached out to us, we got connected to them, and basically for their grand opening, they wanted us to do a mural on the arts building. And this was when we were already, we were doing a Migrating Mural in, actually also in Ogden, and so this was the second one, and we led to that. And that's when Jane came up with Monarch in Moda, which is one of my favorites to this day. And it launched the Ogden Arts District—the Monarch Migrating Mural. And so that was a huge—a huge honor to be a part of that, and to be able to help set—that they came to us to ask, to help set the tone, and set the standard for the work that they wanted to see, and the impact that they wanted to have.

Jane: See, I guess that's why I do need Thayer to answer some of these questions for me now, too, because I'm like, “I don’t know.”

Thayer: Haha.

Jane: So I just want to say. But it is hard to know and measure exactly what kind of impact any of our work is actually doing. You know, conservation is a long game. Like we put out these, this energy and these efforts, and I do believe that it makes a difference because it does bring joy even in the immediate. And if it's only that, that's actually kind of a win for me too.

Matthew: Through all of this, seeing so much of work, I'm always intrigued. I mean, how do you create a huge mural? It's like, you don't just turn up one morning with some cans of paint and start. So can you tell us a bit about the process and preparation behind creating such an installation?

Jane: Yes. I feel like we can both touch on it because it actually requires two very specific sets of skills. And one is the organization, and the collaboration that comes with the different partnerships, and the fundraising, the legal stuff, the all the other ins and outs that I think is forgotten and lost on people when they see a mural. It's like oh, it's like an artist just goes and paints something. And that's certainly not the case. And Thayer can certainly speak to that.

Jane: For me, I just treat it like I would any canvas. It's like the building is a canvas, and telling the story, and the composition. I do visit the site in advance and spend time with it. I do like to understand as much about the setting as possible. Like what—is it a west-facing wall? Is it an east-facing wall? How does the sun hit it or not hit it? What parts of it are gonna be in shadow? But all these things sort of help me frame the story. And, as I mentioned, story is the most important part of how I create a mural, and it's off—. Each one of the Monarch Migrating Murals has a very unique aesthetic to it, other than the central character, the female monarch butterfly. She remains the same, and in the same position in all my murals. But everything else surrounding her is quite unique depending on that story.

Jane: Yeah, and then I do have a massive team, depending on the size of the project. Anywhere from just a single assistant, up to 11 different people at a time. And so that's really wonderful, too. And when we said earlier [that] it seemed better suited for the studio to not be my name. And it sort of empowers people. They can be part of this team with the same goals. And all the artists that join us have the same sentiments towards wanting to tell stories of the natural world. And their own practices are often around this theme, too. So then it just becomes this really massive effort—collective effort.

Thayer: Yeah. And in terms of structurally, like the way that a project, a big mural project, for instance—I mean, even a lot of the other ones, too—but we'll usually start out with a design, in the design phase, where we're working with the client, or working with our partner, whoever, to explore the topic, develop the topic visually. And then once we get through the design phase, we have a thumbnail of what this work is gonna be. And then, once that's complete, then we shift in to the, to the pre-production.

Thayer: So in the studio, I don't think people realize this, but Jane mixes all her colors. And there's no off—there's very few off-the-shelf colors that we use in these projects. The Springfield project was 150 different colors, or something like that. So Jane and our team are in the studio, they're doing color drawdowns, right? And so you'll come in and, I mean, it's kind of like this really beautiful, checkered, just squares of the palette of different colors. And, you know, then they'll say, for instance, if it's a new animal or new subject that she hasn't painted right, they'll actually paint it small scale in the studio to see how the colors all align, tweaking the colors, that sort of thing.

Jane: That's called like sampling, so we'll make samples.

Thayer: When you think about a mural project, if we're spending X amount of time on site, in the field, there's that same amount of time in pre-production in the studio getting everything ready.

Jane: And of course, you know, that’s not to say that's how it's always done. So I just wanna be careful because I do really like, I I respect those artists, like, I admire those artists actually who can just come to a massive wall and like freehand something in spray paint, or rollers, or whatever. And that is like a whole other type of expression. But I think what it is—because we're telling a very specific story and there's so much research.

Thayer: In that sense, not—. And a lot of times there's not a lot of room for interpretation, in some ways.

Jane: No, I don't even want there to be interpretation, because I do wanna get it right. So I wanna get it right, and I have a responsibility to the audience to capture it correctly. You know, I think that’s like what our goals as a studio kind of drives also the technique of how we work.

Matthew: And I know you were talking about the studio work, and mixing the paints, and I mean like, it makes sense that you do that, but I guess I hadn't really thought that through. I just assumed you went down to a paint store, and went through their color charts, but mixing your own paints makes perfect sense. But how do you actually take the studio sketches—what? I don't know, how—what, do you have a particular name? It's like a sculptor has his own a maquette they make to—like a little version of their sculpture. How do you take that sketch and recreate it on the wall?

Jane: That's a great question. And that's—we have many answers for that because the technique changes, and there are lots of ways to transfer your image onto the wall. Sometimes a projector works just beautifully, and you have a situation where you can just throw the projection on to the wall, and trace your imagery, and that's a great way to scale it up. Sometimes we draw a grid, then do a grid method, which, you know, we have squares that are small, that we then make large and freehand draw something like that. Sometimes we use stencils. And sometimes we print out big sheets like the at-scale imagery and hang those up. And we'll even do this kind of negative transfer thing where we'll cut the paper out and then draw the line. And I know it sounds kooky, but it like, it's actually pretty quick and accurate. Again, that's the thing that like—. Part of why I take so much care and determining the imagery beforehand is because I do really wanna make sure I get it right. And so whatever I can do to make a one for one transfer in the quickest way is how we will approach that. So for our upcoming mural at Saddleback Community College, we'll probably do a combination of grid, as well as projector. Because there's gonna be this one wall that can be projected.

Thayer: And on that note, this year is actually, this fall marks the 10-year anniversary of the Wall of Birds. So for those of—we've mentioned this a few times in the conversation—for those who are not familiar, the Wall of Birds is probably the project that kind of introduced us to the world. It was quite a way to launch a studio. Haha. And basically for Cornell—the Cornell Lab of Ornithology is the leading institute of bird study in the world—for their one hundred-year anniversary, they commissioned Ink Dwell to do a 3,000-square-foot mural depicting the 375-year evolution—million-year evolution of birds. It was a two-and-a-half-year project. It was, at the time, the only mural to showcase all 243 modern families of birds in one place, plus another 27 avian relatives.

Thayer: And as part of that process, for every—almost every species, every animal that Jane created, first, she started with graphite studies. And the graphite studies—at a place like Cornell, obviously, anatomy is extremely important throughout depicting anything in the natural world. Jane created this incredible suite of studies, and then those studies were digitized, and then actually transferred onto the wall as the template for the final bird. And so we have this incredible catalog of original studies, that we are now releasing publicly to the world for the first time, that anyone listening can find at wallofbirds.com.

Rachel: Congratulations. I'm sure that was a lot of work just putting that together, and also very exciting to share that process. So bringing it back to conservation, specifically conservation of insects. From your perspective, and from your experience, how is art aided in the conservation of insects?

Jane: I certainly do think that this actually does have a bit more of a direct answer because it provided visualization. And especially historically, when before we had cameras, and before we were able to take those immediate snapshots in real time, it was so necessary to have artists come on exploration trips and document. And so the history of scientific illustration for me—especially, even when we see it in the form of, petroglyphs or cave paintings, right? Like the depictions of the natural world around us, or just the life around us is informative.

Jane: And pictures are worth a thousand words. So even like when you have ad on Craigslist for an apartment, if you don't have a picture with that, you're not gonna really sell people. Imagery is so important in shaping our understanding of the knowledge that we have. So I do believe really wholeheartedly in how important visualizations are. And it's the first way that we, as humans, understood the world is through pictures, is before we even had language, we have visuals, and we have color understanding. So that, it's like deeply human, I think, also, to be able to be inspired by pictures. So yeah, I think it's very important.

Thayer: Yeah, and I also think, in a lot of ways, I think insects and bugs have a—get a bad rap. Gross, icky, disease, yada. And, you know, there's—sometimes that's the case. But, broadly speaking, we think bugs are beautiful. We think insects are beautiful. And it's not just we think—they are.

Jane: Yeah.

Thayer: And especially when you get the opportunity to really look at them. And with the Migrating Mural and really so much of our work, this concept of making the easy to overlook impossible to ignore. And the monarchs—people are very impressed by them, in general. They're pretty high profile. They're hard to miss. But there's so much else in the insect world that is just so fascinating. Shield bugs are one of our favorite things—.

Jane: Oh my gosh, I love shield bugs!

Thayer: —we love shield bugs, yeah. And so there's such a spectacular diversity. I mean, these things are works of art in themselves. So I think—.

Jane: I agree.

Thayer: —I think in terms of being able to take something that's so small, and so beautiful that often has a bad reputation, and is easy to misunderstand, and take that opportunity to be able to show the world that actually, “Hey, here's the reality behind these things.” It's not just that they're the base layer of our entire food pyramid, but they're also pretty awesome just to look at. That's an opportunity that we don't take lightly.

Jane: They are little works of art. Nudibranchs don't get a bad rap, like people love nudibranchs. But I do love—there's that one blog that was like comparing nudibranchs to David Bowie's outfits, and like how much of a match there is to that. Like 99% match, 89. And then when you start to see the nudibranchs and his outfits side by side, you're just like, “Oh my God.” Everything that we think is design and high fashion in our world already exists, probably in invertebrate form.

Rachel: Very true. I love nudibranchs. But yeah, going in that same line of thought, Jane, you've previously talked about nature blindness. Can you describe what you mean by that, and how can art help cure that blindness?

Jane: Yes. I really think that this is something that modern humans really suffer from a lot. I think it's just so easy to overlook the trees, the leaves, certainly something as small as bugs, like getting down in there and knowing that the soil is so alive, if you start looking inside, underneath it, through it. And sometimes I think what art can do is jog us out of that, because it can give us like a new way to look at it, and out of context. And sometimes that, like pulling that person out of context and then reintroducing them to the thing somehow allows them to see it. And that goes back to that thing earlier that I said: one of the—my biggest compliments is when someone starts to notice that animal or plant around them all the time. But it was always there, it's just that they needed some help to see that it was always there.

Jane: And this is true about any topic, in fact. That's precisely one of the main roles of art is to provide that alternative perspective to something to maybe snap someone out of a reality that they're stuck in or what have you. I hope that what we do at Ink Dwell serves not only to jog people out of that context, but then give them information that they can take away with, too, so there's an understanding there that we hope to add to that.

Matthew: Yeah. Thank you. Sadly, we're coming to the end of our time, so—. I could keep talking with you for hours and hours. It's been just absolutely fascinating, both to understand more about the kind of the practicality and the processes to creating the art, but also just to learn more about you, and the thinking, and the emotion behind each piece. And the reason for why you are doing this. So, like I said before we started recording, I'm a big fan. Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Matthew: We always end our episodes with a couple of pretty standard questions that we're gonna wrap up with. If you could see any bug in the wild, what would it be?

Thayer: It's—yeah, it's not so much a bug, as it is a phenomenon. And we were actually just talking about this this morning, and—because, I mean, there's so many to choose from—but ultimately, we do feel like we're a little deficient in our position as Monarch Migrating Mural communicators because we have yet to visit their roosting site in Michoacán. That is something that we were both like—since we launched this thing in 2017—we’ve been like, “Okay, we're gonna go.”

Jane: “We gotta go. We gotta go.”

Thayer: And we just haven't done it yet.

Jane: Yes, absolutely.

Matthew: I can totally understand that.

Thayer: Yeah.

Jane: Sorry it's not a more exotic answer, but honestly, I wanna see that spectacular so badly.

Matthew: Yeah, no, there doesn't have to be an exotic answer to that question.

Rachel: That was a great answer, and I love that you answered that collectively. All right, last question here. What is your most memorable experience with an invertebrate?

Jane: Oh my goodness. Can I share three very quickly? One was the first time I found caddisfly casings, like those really beautiful casings. That was so exciting. And I, of course, drew that immediately. This was a Yosemite National Park.

Jane: And then the second one: seeing glow worms in New Zealand.

Thayer: Oh, yeah.

Jane: That was just a—. And it was so cool—.

Thayer: On our honeymoon.

Jane: On our honeymoon. And it was because it wasn't one of those ecotourism situations. We just saw this random sign on the road that said, “X kilometers to a glowworm cave,” and we were the only ones in there. And it was so extraordinary.

Jane: And then the third one is, again, nudibranchs. Seeing my first nudibranch on a dive, like this close in the water, not just in a tide pool. I think was just like mind blowing.

Thayer: I have two pretty memorable experiences that sort of span—that span the spectrum from life to death. The first one: I was in Uganda. This was in 2004. I was kayaking on the Nile, and we were coming back from a long day, and I was standing in the back of a big truck, and all the gear and everything, and my shirt—I mean, it’s hot, you're on the equator—and my shirt was off. And we're going 30 miles an hour, and basically just flew into the stinger end of a wasp. And it was, right in my heart, like right there. And fortunately, I'm not allergic, but I could feel my neck like tightening up, and could just imagine if I had been allergic, that actually could have been it. Because we're in the middle of nowhere in Uganda.

Jane: So the power of insects.

Thayer: Yeah! It was just the power of insect. So it was like painful enough—. I knew that I wasn't gonna cross a threshold, so I was able to kind of lean into the experience a little bit. Conversely—and I know we're coming to the end here, so I'll leave this as a cliffhanger—but one of the assignments I had for Outside magazine: I stranded myself on a desert island. And I lasted 20 days. I lost 14 pounds, and about 95% of my sanity. But one of the things that kept me alive were termites. And I was eating a ton of termites, there were a few different kinds. There were the little, tiny, sweet white termites, and they were delicious. And I was full chimpanzee, licking the stick and putting it in. But then there were these big, chunky ones, which I liked because they were bigger, and they had more calories, but they had these big—they were sour, and they had these big black heads. And so whenever I'd eat them, they'd pinch my tongue. So I stuck with the tiny, little, sweet lighter ones. And it was literally my favorite part of my diet on this 20-day experience.

Jane: Maybe not the answer you guys were expecting. Memorable experiences with insects.

Thayer: Yeah, so.

Matthew: That is one little factoid I knew about Thayer already, so I'm not too surprised. Haha.

Thayer: It was the only thing I looked forward to eating on that island, too. They were good. They were delicious. Good source of protein.

Matthew: And it's funny, where we are in North America, the idea of eating insects, it's that people are like horrified by it.

Jane: I know.

Matthew: And yet, shrimp is a delicacy.

Jane: Totally!

Matthew: And I’m always like, “You eat sea bugs.” And you’re like, “No, I don’t!”

Jane: You do! Haha.

Matthew: But elsewhere in the world, eating insects is a fairly normal thing.

Rachel: Oh, man. Thank you both so much. This has been such a great—.

Jane: You're very welcome.

Rachel: —a great conversation. I love these stories. It's been such an honor to have you both here. And just truly, thank you for the work you're doing. It's so important. Inspiring people, connecting communities, connecting people to nature. It's all just really wonderful. I'm so excited to see just the future work that you're gonna do, and hopefully we'll have you back someday. But yeah, thank you so much for your time today. It's been really wonderful. It's been such a pleasure.

Jane: Of course. Alrighty. Good to talk with you.

Thayer: Thank you.

Matthew: Bug Banter is brought to you by the Xerces Society, a donor-based nonprofit that is working to protect insects and other invertebrates—the life that sustains us.

Matthew: If you are already a donor, thank you so much. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate. For information about this podcast or for show notes, go to xerces.org/bugbanter.